Discourse with Dave

Some thoughts on the Rob Bell thing…

I am a young evangelical pastor. I really liked Rob Bell. I am jealous because I cannot pull off glasses that cool. Back in the day, I enjoyed the Nooma videos when they first came out and I really liked to listen to his podcasts. Rob is a gifted speaker and I believe God used Bell to reveal Himself to me in a few ways. Like a lot of people my age, I enjoyed most of Velvet Elvis, but somewhere in the middle of the book, I remember being concerned that he was questioning the importance of the Virgin Birth…so I wrote a question mark in the margin but I continued to give him the benefit of the doubt. The rest of the book was pretty darn good. Then I bought Sex God. Another good book with some very intriguing thoughts about the Bible’s “salvation as marriage” metaphor. It opened my eyes on several issues. In Velvet Elvis it seemed to me that Bell was de-emphasizing the importance of the historicity of Adam and Eve (he was saying that the fact that this story ”happens” in our lives, is much more significant than whether or not it “happened” in history) Really? Is that okay to downplay that story like that? I mean, there’s a lot at stake if you get rid of a historical “Adam” and the story of the fall of mankind. Not to mention its implications on Romans 5 or 1 Corinthians 15 where the first Adam plays a pretty important role in New Testament theology. I guess my point is that I have noticed Bell pushing the envelope further and further as the years passed. 

After watching his book release interview for Love Wins in New York City last night, I shook my head. (Here is a transcript).  When asked point blank questions about fundamental Christian doctrines, he left them hanging in the air instead of giving clear answers. He told lots of stories (really good stories, mind you, he is a great speaker), but he was evasive and ambiguous at best and deceptive at worst. Bell is a great communicator. Intriguing. Thought-provoking. But he left ambiguity when clarity was called for. When people were asking for propositions, he told stories that didn’t answer their questions. He could have easily laid to rest the accusations made about him, but he chose not to. At the end, I shook my head as he was avoiding the very weighty issues at stake and that is just irresponsible. I think he knows it too, which is why he tries to relieve his responsibility by claiming  at the end of the interview that “he’s not very smart, not a theologian and not a scholar.” Not so fast, Bell, if that is the case, then why are you shepherding people as a pastor and writing theological books? You’re on the hook for the impact of your teaching, Bell, sorry, as James says, for this reason, not many of you should be teachers. A terrible responsibility comes with the territory. If you can’t take that heat, get out of the kitchen.  (Here is a critical review of the book.)

In the promo video for the book (here), Bell claimed that he was getting at the issue behind the issue, the question behind the question about hell.

For Bell, the “question behind the question” is…the very character of God. How can you believe in a God who would send people to hell? How can God be good if He does that? How is God just? Surely God could not have meant what he said about “forever and ever,” and Bell just can’t believe in that kind of God.  For Bell, it is just downright un-American that everybody doesn’t have the right to go to heaven. Therefore, for God to be “good,” in his definition of the word “good,” he thinks that God must give everyone heaven, or at least a chance at heaven, and maybe even a second chance after they have already rejected God and died. And all of this he gives scriptural support for. Really? 

But here is the issue behind the issue that is behind that issue. Pride. In a spirit of independence from God’s revelation about hell in the Bible, Bell is refusing to submit to God’s word. In other words, Rob Bell, the clay, is talking back to the potter. He sets himself up as the authority and boastfully believes his idea of fairness and his heterodox understanding of hell is more accurate than the plain biblical text. Listen to this verse, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt 10:28). As Sinclair Ferguson once noted, these words were not spoken by Augustine, or Luther or some firey baptist preacher, they were spoken by Jesus Christ. Submit to Him and tremble in your seat at His terrible words of justice. When He returns, who can stand the wrath of the lamb?

And here is the issue that is behind that issue which was behind the other issue: Bell has a misunderstanding about grace. The real problem here is that his mindset shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what grace is. God is not obligated to give anyone grace. God is under no obligation to save everyone or anyone for that matter. Man has rejected God and God is at odds with man. By definition, grace cannot be demanded or else it is not grace. The only thing anyone is entitled to is justice, which is what we all deserve for committing high treason against the Righteous Judge of all the Earth. R.C. Sproul says it this way, “We are no longer amazed by grace, and we are shocked – in consternation – by justice.” Grace is an absolutely amazing gift of God which teaches us both to fear God again and simultaneously to be relieved of our fear from God’s wrath. As the hymn goes…”‘Twas grace that taught my heart to fear and Grace my fears relieved.” At the cross, grace came and taught me to fear God. When I look at the cross, grace shows me that there is an infinitely terrible punishment for my sin that I deserved. “But grace my fears relieved,” the cross also reassures me that my punishment has already been paid by the infinitely valuable sacrifice of the God-man in my place. That kind of grace is simply amazing, amazing that He saved a wretch like me. But no one can ever claim that God is not fair for not giving it to someone, no one is ”entitled” to grace because they are all guilty as charged of their sin and their punishment is just.

Our post-modern, entitlement laden culture is not tender toward the exclusive message about Jesus Christ, nor are they tolerant of the terrible doctrine of hell. But this is nothing new…This is not the first time Christians have been in a hostile environment. We must be careful here, there is a temptation to think that the only way to get people to accept Christianity is to change it. But that is not an option. Our faith is to proclaim, not to edit or reinterpret. Our faith was “passed down” (Jude 1:1-5) to us by the apostles and prophets and we are under divine obligation to keep it in tact.

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March 15, 2011 - Posted by | Uncategorized | , , , , ,

7 Comments »

  1. I think you make some excellent points here Dave. Especially about the pride that may be the hidden motivation of many emerging and emergent type evangelicals. That is something that all of us, whatever our stance that we must guard against. While I don’t know for sure Bell’s motive’s, whether he is purposely courting controversy or not, I think what he does that is important is get the dialogue moving on this topic, which is an important one.
    While I read the same passage in Velvet Elvis that you referred to, I don’t remember coming away with that reading. I actually felt Bell was making a stronger case for the virgin birth, but I’ll have to go back and take a look at it. I don’t remember the reference to Adam in sex god, but I’ll have to go back and look at that again.
    I don’t see Bell questioning the intentions of God as much as man’s interpretation of passages on hell. After finishing the book, while I may not agree with Bell completely he seems to be looking at how we’ve interpreted certain passages on hell and sets some of them in their historical context. He makes the case that our interpretations may not be as airtight as we think. To me, I think that is an important dialogue to take part in because I think it forces us back to the Scriptures, to be read on it’s terms and not our own.

    Comment by Nithin Thompson | March 17, 2011

  2. Thanks Nithin. You make some great points. Bell says he affirms the Virgin Birth, although I’m not sure what he means by “virgin birth,” to me he seems to downplay its significance and importance as a fundamental in our faith (that was on page 26). I wonder, is that really a gray area or is that a black/white issue? I think its a black/white issue. (I also remember he did this in nooma 15, by comparing Jesus to all the other Roman gods, it seemed like he was downplaying the uniqueness of the virgin birth and the resurrection there too.

    I went back to try and find the Adam and Eve comment, and that comment was actually in Velvet Elvis too, not Sex God…sorry. but again, it wasn’t that he was “denying it,” it just seemed like he was putting a question mark on it again, and a kind of “de-emphasis” on the historical aspect of the Adam and Eve account (that’s on page 58.)

    check those quotes out and let me know what you think, i respect your opinion.

    Comment by davidhentschel | March 18, 2011

  3. This was a great review of this book…now, I am not so sure about reading it. I am a true believer that the Word of God is the WORD OF GOD. He didn’t give us the Bible to question who He is, but rather to understand why He is who He is. God is giving and has given everyone the chance to go to heaven…but He also wanted us to make the decision by our own free will. If you choose to deny God, then the result is hell. The Bible also states that those who have accepted Christ will be tested again during the 1,000 period and even many of those people will be deceived. The Bible is very clear that “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith”…and I believe God meant exactly what he said! Thanks again…great read!

    Comment by RebeccaA | April 14, 2011

  4. I understand where you are coming from David, but where do you talk about love here? Rob Bell mentions love and grace and focuses on this for a lot of his themes, but in this page, you barely mention Gods love for us, you make God sound like someone to fear, I believe a fear of God is too respect him, but not be afraid. God is a God of Love and Jesus was all about love and acceptance. Jesus sais most importantly to love him, and love others. Jesus accepted everyone, the diseased, the sick, the losers, the prostitues. Jesus has died for everyones sins, im not saying that means that everyone is going to heaven, but you David are focusing so hard on proving Rob Bell wrong, that you yourself seem to have missed the point. The important message is Jesus accepts you, Jesus Loves you, thats whay Rob Bell is saying in a nutshell. And I wouldnt be putting words in Gods mouth about him not be obligated to not give out his grace as it is already done. He did it 2000 years ago. He poured out his grace on all humanity.

    Comment by Patrick Hernandez | April 14, 2011

  5. Hi Patrick,

    Thanks for reading and for the thoughtful feedback.

    My response is as follows…

    1) Of course I affirm God’s love, but the problem is we should not elevate this attribute over His other attributes – such as His holiness or justice. The reason for the perceived imbalance here in the article above is not because I do not view God as loving, but because this is not an article focusing on my understanding of God’s love, it is a response to Bell’s perverted and unbiblical teaching about God’s love and his denial of the biblical doctrine of Hell. But for the record, I am eternally grateful for the love of God, which I do not deserve. I also think it is a very loving thing to do to warn people of imminent danger.
    2) Regarding the fear of God, you are correct that respect/reverence/awe is one of the biblical nuances of the word fear that we should have for God, but there is also another sense of fear found in the Bible that you must deal with as well (for example, see how the word “fear” is used in two different ways in Ex 20:20, see also Jesus’ use of the word “fear” in Matt 10:28 – cited above in the article – and see Heb 10:31 – “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” et al), there are times where “respect” does not fit as a translation or reflect the biblical intention.
    3. I do not believe I have missed Rob Bell’s point, I have studied it thoroughly, I affirm God’s love, I just disagree with Bell’s conclusion that His love is somehow tainted or less than perfect if an eternal hell were to exist. Of course God’s love is a message to spread far and wide in the gospel, and I have committed my entire life to that high calling, both in word and deed, so help me God.
    4. Putting words in God’s mouth is a serious accusation – and a serious issue that I don’t take lightly. And this is exactly what I think Bell is doing when He speculates about 1) those who do not put their faith in Christ still gaining eternal life and 2) a “second chance” at salvation after people die rejecting God. I do not find these truths in the Scriptures anywhere. The proof texts he uses for them in the book do not hold water.

    On the other hand, I do not believe I am putting words in God’s mouth about defining grace as a gift and not an obligation. This is the very definition of the word grace. God is not in our debt. The only thing He owes us is justice. This is the way the NT defines grace throughout – the word “charis” means gift. (There’s just too many verses to list here – I refer you to the book of Romans). The point is, the Bible teaches that God is free to give grace or withold grace from whomever He chooses. Like for example – Esau – who He hates. Or Pharoah – who He raises up to show His power against. Paul says it this way, “Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden” (Rom 9:18). This is a hard truth, but it is one we must wrestle with and study. Putting God in our debt and treating grace as an obligation is a misunderstanding of grace.

    OK – so I hope this clears up my positions. And thanks again for your thoughts – keep pursuing truth, brother.

    Your friend,

    Dave

    Comment by davidhentschel | April 15, 2011

  6. To use Matt 10:28 as a proof text for eternal burning in hell is dishonest. There is so much available to read and study on this misunderstood topic…if one wants to know the truth. Just one example:

    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollymi) both soul and body in hell (gehenna).

    In this NKJV scripture, the Greek word gehenna has once again been mistranslated as hell.

    Christ says that we must not fear men who at worst can only kill us physically, but they cannot ‘kill the soul’ meaning they cannot take away the resurrected immortal life, which God will grant to all people. However, we need to fear God in this life, because if we don’t then there is a judgement awaiting us in gehenna, meaning in the Lake of Fire, on the Great White Throne Judgement Day.

    Notice in the verse above how Christ once again uses the same word apollymi. The destruction (apollymi) of ‘both soul and body’ in gehenna refers to the Second Death, which is the spiritual death of the ‘old man’ in the Lake of Fire. Our sinful Adamic ‘old man’ must first be destroyed before the righteous ‘new man’ in Christ can be born in us. All unbelievers, who will rise at the Second Resurrection in their immortal yet still unsaved bodies, will die the Second Death in the Lake of Fire. We cover this subject in Chapter 12, The Lake of Fire Judgement Age – Part 1.

    fm http://www.godsplanforall.com/jesusdidnotteachhell

    I’m just saying…hold your judgment until you know more facts.

    Comment by Bob Mahlstedt | April 18, 2011

  7. Hi Bob.

    Thanks for reading and for your thoughts. Unfortunately, I do not agree with the interpretation being espoused there. There is zero biblical evidence for the salvation of those who are cast into the Lake of Fire (as this heterodox website proposes), especially compared to the vast biblical evidence which teach the doctrine of eternal punishment. Also, the source material from the internet which was cut and paste here on my blog to defend this view of eternal punishment truly lacks scholarly credibility. (A couple of people without theological training or language study who decided to write an e-book is not very compelling evidence.) The universalist viewpoint has been debunked by many great conservative scholars, I would highly recommend you continue to pursue the issue at hand, here are some resources you can chase down if interested:

    1) Perhaps you might want to read “Chosen by God” by Dr. R.C. Sproul
    2) Perhaps you might enjoy listening to the panel of scholars discuss Rob Bell’s book at last week’s “Gospel Coalition” conference – here is a summary of the panel discussion.
    3) Or, you might enjoy listening to Dr. James MacDonald’s message, “What’s down with hell?” here.
    4) You might also want to listen to Dr. Sinclair Ferguson teach on the biblical basis for the doctrine of eternal punishment years ago here.

    God bless you in your study of God’s word, keep pursuing truth,

    Dave

    Comment by davidhentschel | April 18, 2011


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